A couple of related questions. You'll want to get your southern
California approach plates out to follow this.

1. The preferred tower-enroute IFR routing from VNY to SNA ends at SLI,
but SLI is not an IAF for any approach into SNA. What should you do if
you lose comm before ATC starts to vector you for an approach?

The second question begins with a background anecdote:

A few weeks ago I flew VNY->CMA. I filed /G, so I assumed (silly me)
that I'd get a GPS approach. The clearance was Canoga 8 departure, VNY,
direct. When ATC told me to fly direct COOGA I realized something was
amiss, as I suddenly had no clue where COOGA was. It wasn't until after
I landed that I figured out I was supposed to be flying the VOR
approach, and that I could have figured that out ahead of time because
VNY is an IAF for the VOR but not the GPS approach (which, oddly, is not
an overlay of the VOR approach, but is offset by six degrees).

Which brings me to my second question:

2. The Canoga 8 departure doesn't go to VNY. The lost comm procedure
says to intercept the LAX 323 radial, then "as assigned." But if I take
that literally, I'd be flying back to VNY along some more or less random
heading (depending on where I intercepted the LAX-323) but almost
certainly pointing in almost the exact wrong direction. Why isn't the
clearance "Canoga 8, COOGA, direct"? And what should I really do if I
lose comm after departure on this clearance?

Thanks,
rg

Ron Garret wrote:

> A couple of related questions. You'll want to get your southern
> California approach plates out to follow this.
>
> 1. The preferred tower-enroute IFR routing from VNY to SNA ends at SLI,
> but SLI is not an IAF for any approach into SNA.

SLI is a feeder fix for the ILS 19R; i.e., there is a published route and
altitude to MAAGG, then to the IAF.

Ron Garret > wrote:
> A couple of related questions. You'll want to get your southern
> California approach plates out to follow this.

It makes it easier on people if you could provide a URL to the plate(s) you
have in mind.

> 1. The preferred tower-enroute IFR routing from VNY to SNA ends at SLI,
> but SLI is not an IAF for any approach into SNA. What should you do if
> you lose comm before ATC starts to vector you for an approach?

Pick an approach that makes sense for the weather conditions, pick an IAF
for that approach that makes sense for your current location and navigation
equipment, fly direct to the IAF, fly the approach, land, taxi off the
runway, wait for the "follow-me" truck to show up and lead you to the ramp.

You've got some fair terrain in the immediate vicinity of the airport, so
paying attention to altitude is critical. Remember what the rule says, the
HIGHEST of the MEA, cleared, or expected altitude. If you had picked the
ILS-19R, it would be obvious; 4000 to MAAGG and SNAKE, then as shown in the
profile view.

It gets a little more interesting if the wind is blowing the other way and
you decide to use the GPS-1L. My initial thought was that since there's no
charted segment from SLI to MINOE, you would fly the MSA. The problem is,
the MSA is 6800 in all quadrants. I don't know why they didn't provide
more than one MSA segment; the MSA southwest of the airport could obviously
be a lot lower. By the book, you would fly 6800 from SLI to MINOE, descend
to 3000 in the hold, and proceed inbound from there. If you were already
at 6800 or higher at SLI, I might be inclined to stay there and do all
that, but I'm guessing you were probably already assigned something lower
en-route to SLI. In that case, I'd use a little common sense and stay at
my last assigned altitude out to MINOE. If you were already at, say, 3000
coming into SLI, I can't see the point in a climb back to 6800 for the trip
out over the water.

> The second question begins with a background anecdote:
>
> A few weeks ago I flew VNY->CMA. I filed /G, so I assumed (silly me)
> that I'd get a GPS approach. The clearance was Canoga 8 departure, VNY,
> direct. When ATC told me to fly direct COOGA I realized something was
> amiss, as I suddenly had no clue where COOGA was.

So ask the guy. "Unfamiliar with COOGA, say reason for reroute". Better
to sound a little dumb now than to just plod on fat, dumb, and happy hoping
things will start to make sense later. He probably would have given you a
heading and distance to COOGA and told you to expect the VOR-whatever. You
could have then requested the GPS approach and assuming traffic permitted,
you would have then be re-cleared for that.

> 2. The Canoga 8 departure doesn't go to VNY. The lost comm procedure
> says to intercept the LAX 323 radial, then "as assigned." But if I take
> that literally, I'd be flying back to VNY along some more or less random
> heading (depending on where I intercepted the LAX-323) but almost
> certainly pointing in almost the exact wrong direction. Why isn't the
> clearance "Canoga 8, COOGA, direct"? And what should I really do if I
> lose comm after departure on this clearance?

It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance. This
is a lot of button pushing to do by the book. By the time you got the box
set up to track the LAX-323 outbound, you'd probably be past IPIHO, not to
mention that it might blow away the rest of your carefully programmed
flight plan. What I would have done instead was go into moving map mode,
turn on displaying intersections, and flown it by eye.

In article >, wrote:

> Ron Garret wrote:
>
> > A couple of related questions. You'll want to get your southern
> > California approach plates out to follow this.
> >
> > 1. The preferred tower-enroute IFR routing from VNY to SNA ends at SLI,
> > but SLI is not an IAF for any approach into SNA.
>
> SLI is a feeder fix for the ILS 19R; i.e., there is a published route and
> altitude to MAAGG, then to the IAF.

Ah, so it is. Boy, that's easy to miss on a NOS plate.

Thanks!
rg

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> Ron Garret > wrote:
> > A couple of related questions. You'll want to get your southern
> > California approach plates out to follow this.
>
> It makes it easier on people if you could provide a URL to the plate(s) you
> have in mind.

Well, in this case there were half a dozen plates in play. Is there an
easy way to pull up all the plates for a particular airport on line? I
only know how to get them one at a time.

> > The second question begins with a background anecdote:
> >
> > A few weeks ago I flew VNY->CMA. I filed /G, so I assumed (silly me)
> > that I'd get a GPS approach. The clearance was Canoga 8 departure, VNY,
> > direct. When ATC told me to fly direct COOGA I realized something was
> > amiss, as I suddenly had no clue where COOGA was.
>
> So ask the guy. "Unfamiliar with COOGA, say reason for reroute".

I did ask where COOGA was (actually I asked how it was spelled), but
neither I nor the controller picked on the fact that we had a major
disconnect going on. (The controller did express surprise that I wasn't
familiar with COOGA, but didn't make the connection and say, "COOGA is
the IAF for the approach you're supposed to be flying. Are you sure you
know what you're doing?") I didn't ask for the reason for the reroute
because I didn't realize it was a reroute.

(BTW, all this was in VFR conditions. If I had been in the clouds I
would have been much more proactive about asking for help, but since I
always had the option of canceling IFR if things really went south I
wanted to see if I could figure it out on my own.)

> > 2. The Canoga 8 departure doesn't go to VNY. The lost comm procedure
> > says to intercept the LAX 323 radial, then "as assigned." But if I take
> > that literally, I'd be flying back to VNY along some more or less random
> > heading (depending on where I intercepted the LAX-323) but almost
> > certainly pointing in almost the exact wrong direction. Why isn't the
> > clearance "Canoga 8, COOGA, direct"? And what should I really do if I
> > lose comm after departure on this clearance?
>
> It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
> IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance.

Yes, that's what it sounds like, but that can't be right. Continuing
with the clearance at that point would require making a 180 degree turn
(more or less) with no charted procedure for doing so (probably because
there are mountains on both sides). And why to IPIHO? The lost comm
procedure doesn't mention IPIHO. They just say to intercept LAX323 and
then as assigned. So if you really took that literally you'd be
approaching VNY from some random heading depending on where you
intercepted LAX323. The whole thing doesn't make sense.

> This
> is a lot of button pushing to do by the book. By the time you got the box
> set up to track the LAX-323 outbound, you'd probably be past IPIHO, not to
> mention that it might blow away the rest of your carefully programmed
> flight plan. What I would have done instead was go into moving map mode,
> turn on displaying intersections, and flown it by eye.

I'm not so concerned with the mechanics of flying the approach in this
case as I am just figuring out what the rules say I'm supposed to do.
It really seems to me like this clearance had a bug in it, and it should
have been Canoga 8, COOGA, direct, not Canoga 8, VNY, direct.

rg

Ron Garret > wrote:
> Is there an easy way to pull up all the plates for a particular airport
> on line?

I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

> I did ask where COOGA was (actually I asked how it was spelled), but
> neither I nor the controller picked on the fact that we had a major
> disconnect going on.

Controllers are good at answering the questions you ask. You asked,
"How do you spell that", and he gave the right answer, "Charlie Oscar
Oscar Golf Alpha". You didn't ask anything more, so he assumed you
were happy. There's no reason for him to assume that "How do you
spell that" should also imply, "and just why the heck do you want me
to go there?"

> The controller did express surprise that I wasn't familiar with COOGA

How did he "express surprise"? Did he say, "I'm surprised you aren't
familiar with COOGA"?

> > It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
> > IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance.
>
> Yes, that's what it sounds like, but that can't be right. Continuing
> with the clearance at that point would require making a 180 degree turn
> (more or less) with no charted procedure for doing so (probably because
> there are mountains on both sides).

I can only assume that the procedure designers took this into
account. Looking at the ILS-16R plate, I'd guess the highest point
within several miles of VNY is the 1520 which looks about 4 miles north of
VNY. You didn't mention what initial altitude you were given, but I'm sure
it was at least 2000. I also don't know what you're flying, but assuming
120 KTAS, turn diameter at standard rate is about 1.3 nm. If the turn
really was almost 180 degrees, there's nothing to keep you from making it a
right turn, away from the terrain.

> And why to IPIHO? The lost comm procedure doesn't mention IPIHO. They
> just say to intercept LAX323 and then as assigned.

I see what you're getting at. There is a certain amount of ambiguity here.
I don't see anything in the procedure which says IPIHO. It does say to
intercept the LAS-323, and your first en-route fix is VNY, so I just
figured following a heavy black line made sense.

> I'm not so concerned with the mechanics of flying the approach in this
> case as I am just figuring out what the rules say I'm supposed to do.
> It really seems to me like this clearance had a bug in it, and it should
> have been Canoga 8, COOGA, direct, not Canoga 8, VNY, direct.

Well, from the ground, that's really no better than what you got, since
none of the CNOG8 transitions get you to COOGA.

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> Ron Garret > wrote:
> > Is there an easy way to pull up all the plates for a particular airport
> > on line?
>
> I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

I can only find one plate per URL here, just like all the other sources
of approach plates that I'm aware of. Am I missing something?

> > I did ask where COOGA was (actually I asked how it was spelled), but
> > neither I nor the controller picked on the fact that we had a major
> > disconnect going on.
>
> Controllers are good at answering the questions you ask. You asked,
> "How do you spell that", and he gave the right answer, "Charlie Oscar
> Oscar Golf Alpha". You didn't ask anything more, so he assumed you
> were happy. There's no reason for him to assume that "How do you
> spell that" should also imply, "and just why the heck do you want me
> to go there?"

No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
to be flying.

> > The controller did express surprise that I wasn't familiar with COOGA
>
> How did he "express surprise"? Did he say, "I'm surprised you aren't
> familiar with COOGA"?

I don't remember the exact phraseology, but it was something like, "If
you're going to be flying around here you'd better get to know COOGA
intersection."

> > > It sounds like you should intercept the LAX-323, fly that northwest to
> > > IPIHO, then eastbound direct VNY, then continue with your clearance.
> >
> > Yes, that's what it sounds like, but that can't be right. Continuing
> > with the clearance at that point would require making a 180 degree turn
> > (more or less) with no charted procedure for doing so (probably because
> > there are mountains on both sides).
>
> I can only assume that the procedure designers took this into
> account. Looking at the ILS-16R plate, I'd guess the highest point
> within several miles of VNY is the 1520 which looks about 4 miles north of
> VNY. You didn't mention what initial altitude you were given, but I'm sure
> it was at least 2000.

4000. Maybe that's why the departure is designed the way it is. They
want you give you essentially a clockwise 360 to get up to cruising
altitude before heading West.

> I also don't know what you're flying

An SR22.

> , but assuming
> 120 KTAS, turn diameter at standard rate is about 1.3 nm. If the turn
> really was almost 180 degrees, there's nothing to keep you from making it a
> right turn, away from the terrain.

Do the TERPsters really expect someone to figure that out on the fly?


> > And why to IPIHO? The lost comm procedure doesn't mention IPIHO. They
> > just say to intercept LAX323 and then as assigned.
>
> I see what you're getting at. There is a certain amount of ambiguity here.
> I don't see anything in the procedure which says IPIHO. It does say to
> intercept the LAS-323, and your first en-route fix is VNY, so I just
> figured following a heavy black line made sense.

Turning left to SUANA (which is an IAF for the GPS approach) makes sense
too. But I'm not talking about what makes sense, I'm talking about the
rules.

> > I'm not so concerned with the mechanics of flying the approach in this
> > case as I am just figuring out what the rules say I'm supposed to do.
> > It really seems to me like this clearance had a bug in it, and it should
> > have been Canoga 8, COOGA, direct, not Canoga 8, VNY, direct.
>
> Well, from the ground, that's really no better than what you got, since
> none of the CNOG8 transitions get you to COOGA.

None of them get you to VNY either.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:

> Roy Smith > wrote:

>>I like www.airnav.com. I'm sure there are others.

> I can only find one plate per URL here, just like all the other sources
> of approach plates that I'm aware of. Am I missing something?

I hope I don't seem too critical here, but you seem so resistant about this...
and yes, I think you are missing that you are the one asking for help, and it
would be helpful to those who are trying to help you if you did more legwork,
and demanded less legwork of the people you are soliciting help from. It doesn't
seem so hard to me to include multiple links along with your question. You are
one person doing that preliminary research, saving several good-hearted people
from having to do it. I don't buy "It's too hard because I can't find a single
URL, so you do it".

<snip>

> No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
> that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
> to be flying.

This theme has bothered me throughout the thread. Were you not told which
approach to expect? You shouldn't have to infer a choice of approaches based on
a fix that you are cleared to.

<snip>

Dave

In article <1109961293.32139@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler >
wrote:


> I hope I don't seem too critical here, but you seem so resistant about this...

I wasn't being resistant, I was just asking a question. And I don't
think you're too critical, but I do think we have an honest difference
of opinion here. I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA. In general,
I think it's good to list a URL if it's a reference to some obscure bit
of information, but in the case of approach plates in a newsgroup
dedicated to IFR flying I assume that everyone knows where to find them,
and everyone has their own favorite source.

In any case, my question got answered so it's a moot point.

> > No, it implied that I wasn't familiar with COOGA, which in turn implied
> > that I wasn't familiar with the approach that he thought I was supposed
> > to be flying.
>
> This theme has bothered me throughout the thread. Were you not told which
> approach to expect? You shouldn't have to infer a choice of approaches based
> on a fix that you are cleared to.

I was told to fly direct COOGA before I was cleared for the approach,
before I got ATIS, and before I was told which approach to expect. By
the time I was cleared I was so confused that I don't actually recall
whether the controller said "cleared for the VOR-A approach" or just
"cleared for the approach." (I contemplated asking for the tapes to go
over what had happened, but decided not to. This happened a while ago
so it's probably too late now.)

I appreciate all the feedback and advice. Thanks.

rg

Ron Garret > wrote:
> I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
> if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.

Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
you are to get good answers.

Eric Raymond wrote on this subject a while ago, it's worth reading his
essay. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Roy Smith wrote:

> Ron Garret > wrote:
> > I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
> > if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.
>
> Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
> than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
> it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
> you are to get good answers.

Plus, unless we know the state in which an airport is located, we can't even
find it on the NACO site.

In article >, wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
>
> > Ron Garret > wrote:
> > > I don't think it would have saved anyone much effort
> > > if I'd listed all the URLs for all the approaches into SNA.
> >
> > Sigh. Yes it would have been easier to click directly on a link you posted
> > than for me to go look it up myself. It's really to your advantage to make
> > it easier for somebody to answer. The easier you make it, the more likely
> > you are to get good answers.
>
> Plus, unless we know the state in which an airport is located, we can't even
> find it on the NACO site.

Well, I did mention is was southern California in the original post.
But if you go to the NACO DPP page and type in SNA (or any other airport
identifier) you get all the plates associated with that airport. (I
didn't know this until just now.) You don't need to know what state
it's in.

The URL for the NACO DPP page is:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/digital_tpp.asp?ver=0502&eff=2-17-2005&end=3-17-2
005

but note that as the effective date is built in to this URL it will
change over time. This page:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp

contains a link that I presume gets updated to the current revision.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:

> Well, I did mention is was southern California in the original post.
> But if you go to the NACO DPP page and type in SNA (or any other airport
> identifier) you get all the plates associated with that airport. (I
> didn't know this until just now.) You don't need to know what state
> it's in.
>

I wasn't faulting you. I was commenting to Roy about a lot of previous posts here
that just say something like "The VOR-A" at 6Q7."

Interesting to know there is a workaround at the NACO site. I don't think that
option was there when they fired up the site.